written (or copy and pasted) solely by Stanley H. Wotring, Jr. I am not a representative of the LSC (BUT I WANT TO BE!}
nor are they responsible for the content. My email address is ***Lynn.School.Watch@gmail.com***.
TIME TO GET SERIOUS!
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Thursday, March 31, 2011
Our Savior's Sad Song
So KIPP's vaunted success is all about how you define "success". Can anybody say "statistical manipulation"?
Come on Stan! How could you do this to your BFF? :)
In all seriousness the study has significant short comings - primarily (and they didn't even mention this in the article), "What is the male African American dropout rate in each district school when compared to the KIPP school?"
I also agree that you cannot compare the attrition numbers from one school to the attrition numbers of an entire district. Lets go school by school and see what happens then.
Just as they can't compare attrition numbers in terms of KIPP vs. a whole district, MCAs scores should not be compared in terms of Lynn Public schools vs. KIPP. Same issue except one works in KIPP's favor and the other one doesn't...
Secondly, I don't think that KIPP or any school should say "well at least we're doing better than X school;" all schools should be looking at their dropout rates in order to figure out some prevention strategies. Saying "it's not a fair comparison" is just ignoring the point be raised, i.e. why are African American males dropping out of our school and is there anything we can do to prevent it?
Actually, KIPP's scores still kick the butts of individual schools when compared side by side. The MCAS English and Math scores (respectively, from best to worst) KIPP 88.8, 88.4; Pickering 85.5, 70.6; Breed 79.2, 60.0; Marshall 72.5, 51.9.
And the study gave NO dropout rates for the schools in Lynn (African American students or otherwise). So I am suspect if this study holds true for our schools or if this is just a national average. Does LPS even keep demographics on which race and gender of students dropout?
The study also does not say where these children go. Do they just washout of KIPP and re-enroll in a non-charter school. Or do they dropout of school entirely?
Thankfully I do my homework and know a thing or two about scientific research. I also drank the kool-aid. But I think Stanley has already told y'all that.
Just to clarify, this article was about the KIPP schools as a whole (all 99 or so campuses) not specifically about Lynn.
^^I think you're missing the point of my post; forget the comparisons. Instead of questioning the data or methodology, why isn't KIPP using this opportunity to understand why their system may work for some students and not others. It should be of concern to them that a significant number of African American males do not stay on; what is the mechanism driving these numbers? Goodness of fit (in terms of peer/teacher relations)? They moved? Didn't like the school or long hours? Dropped out entirely? This sort of information could add to the discussion around 'school choice' and what sorts of choices/environments need to exist so that all students can be educated.
I think that in terms of deciding where to send your child comparing MCAs (or other state test) scores are useful, but in the larger scheme ed reform a lot more information needs to be on the table.
I too know some things about scientific research, thanks...
I think I got your point fine the first time Anonymous. You like hiding behind anonymity.
You've conveniently forgotten to follow your own advise. Stop comparing KIPP to everyone else. Considering that the drop out rate of African American males is incredibly high across the board maybe ALL schools should take a closer look at "what's not working" versus singling out my cult...uh, I mean school.
And don't even get me started on School Choice and No Child Left Behind. If you live here in Lynn - there is no school choice. You get to go to a failing school or you get to go to a school that is failing less. And when you call down to the admin building to exercise your Required School Choice rights, they tell you that you can't. And then when you push the issue and find out that if ALL your schools are failing, which means that Lynn now needs to pay for out-of-district placements and transportation, you then learn that Lynn gets to select which districts they'll place children in and if Lynn just so happens to choose districts that aren't accepting 'school choice' kids, well then you're just S.O.L.
I agree that all schools (LEHS, LCHS, LVTI) should also look at their dropout rates. The post was about KIPP and so the discussion was related to that. I'm done with this website as it seems that civil discourse is not happening here. Thanks, Stanley
Melissa Cult? I don't think KIPP is such! IF YOUR CHILD IS GOING TO KIPP THEN WHY ARE YOU ON LPS Sped PAC? Don't be surprised if your child wants to go back to LPS...I know parents who had to do such!
It's good to debate and make points, BUT PLEASE BE KIND AND RESPECTFUL! Work it out and figure it out with the child's interest first.
Come on Stan! How could you do this to your BFF? :)
ReplyDeleteIn all seriousness the study has significant short comings - primarily (and they didn't even mention this in the article), "What is the male African American dropout rate in each district school when compared to the KIPP school?"
I also agree that you cannot compare the attrition numbers from one school to the attrition numbers of an entire district. Lets go school by school and see what happens then.
Just as they can't compare attrition numbers in terms of KIPP vs. a whole district, MCAs scores should not be compared in terms of Lynn Public schools vs. KIPP. Same issue except one works in KIPP's favor and the other one doesn't...
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I don't think that KIPP or any school should say "well at least we're doing better than X school;" all schools should be looking at their dropout rates in order to figure out some prevention strategies. Saying "it's not a fair comparison" is just ignoring the point be raised, i.e. why are African American males dropping out of our school and is there anything we can do to prevent it?
Actually, KIPP's scores still kick the butts of individual schools when compared side by side. The MCAS English and Math scores (respectively, from best to worst) KIPP 88.8, 88.4; Pickering 85.5, 70.6; Breed 79.2, 60.0; Marshall 72.5, 51.9.
ReplyDeleteAnd the study gave NO dropout rates for the schools in Lynn (African American students or otherwise). So I am suspect if this study holds true for our schools or if this is just a national average. Does LPS even keep demographics on which race and gender of students dropout?
The study also does not say where these children go. Do they just washout of KIPP and re-enroll in a non-charter school. Or do they dropout of school entirely?
Thankfully I do my homework and know a thing or two about scientific research. I also drank the kool-aid. But I think Stanley has already told y'all that.
Just to clarify, this article was about the KIPP schools as a whole (all 99 or so campuses) not specifically about Lynn.
ReplyDelete^^I think you're missing the point of my post; forget the comparisons. Instead of questioning the data or methodology, why isn't KIPP using this opportunity to understand why their system may work for some students and not others. It should be of concern to them that a significant number of African American males do not stay on; what is the mechanism driving these numbers? Goodness of fit (in terms of peer/teacher relations)? They moved? Didn't like the school or long hours? Dropped out entirely? This sort of information could add to the discussion around 'school choice' and what sorts of choices/environments need to exist so that all students can be educated.
I think that in terms of deciding where to send your child comparing MCAs (or other state test) scores are useful, but in the larger scheme ed reform a lot more information needs to be on the table.
I too know some things about scientific research, thanks...
I think I got your point fine the first time Anonymous. You like hiding behind anonymity.
ReplyDeleteYou've conveniently forgotten to follow your own advise. Stop comparing KIPP to everyone else. Considering that the drop out rate of African American males is incredibly high across the board maybe ALL schools should take a closer look at "what's not working" versus singling out my cult...uh, I mean school.
And don't even get me started on School Choice and No Child Left Behind. If you live here in Lynn - there is no school choice. You get to go to a failing school or you get to go to a school that is failing less. And when you call down to the admin building to exercise your Required School Choice rights, they tell you that you can't. And then when you push the issue and find out that if ALL your schools are failing, which means that Lynn now needs to pay for out-of-district placements and transportation, you then learn that Lynn gets to select which districts they'll place children in and if Lynn just so happens to choose districts that aren't accepting 'school choice' kids, well then you're just S.O.L.
And your kids get left behind.
I agree that all schools (LEHS, LCHS, LVTI) should also look at their dropout rates. The post was about KIPP and so the discussion was related to that. I'm done with this website as it seems that civil discourse is not happening here. Thanks, Stanley
ReplyDelete-Cleo
A Wellesley educated grad shouldn't give up that quickly, Cleo.
ReplyDeleteCleo
ReplyDeleteDon't give up! Congrats going to Wellesley!
Melissa
Cult? I don't think KIPP is such! IF YOUR CHILD IS GOING TO KIPP THEN WHY ARE YOU ON LPS Sped PAC? Don't be surprised if your child wants to go back to LPS...I know parents who had to do such!
It's good to debate and make points, BUT PLEASE BE KIND AND RESPECTFUL! Work it out and figure it out with the child's interest first.
Please!